I agree--there is such a thing as bad writing (with a lot of room for interpretation within the definitions of "bad" and "good"). There is value in critiquing respectfully but without holding back. Like you said, we should all want to elevatw the craft! I also think we (writers/readers) can assume that getting past the gatekeepers automatically means something is good, while not getting accepted by those gatekeepers means it's bad. I have read some self-published authors whose work is objectively excellent and in some cases better than some traditionally published work. In one case, the author's work doesn't fit into a neat genre and is difficult to market. In another case, she chose self-publishing because she likes the actual publishing part. So, all that to say: yes, there is bad and good writing, we should critique respectfully, and the gatekeepers aren't always right (unless they are giving actual, helpful feedback)
The gatekeepers certainly aren't always right, Amanda. That is very true. And to your point, it's not really a published vs self published thing, just an expectation of quality thing.
Isn't bad writing a necessary step on the path to good writing?
I collected a great deal of rejection letters during the first 50 years of my writing journey, but I kept at it, attending conferences to pitch in person, taking courses to learn more, and, most importantly, writing. I don't know how much of my drive to keep at it was due to the encouragement I received early on from my family and friends. I might have given up if I had been told then how bad my writing was. If my writing still isn't good enough, I will keep at it, doing whatever it takes to make it better. None of us likes harsh criticism, but criticism of our work is part of the development process, if we work at it. I would hate to kill someone's enthusiasm about writing. I was lucky enough to have some excellent teachers who were super helpful along the way, and I consider all who read my novels and give me feedback in that process. We don't start out good. We work at it. So, if my writing isn't good enough, I will keep working on it. BTW - Good enough for whom? It has to be good enough for me first.
I would totally agree that bad writing is a necessary part of good writing. If you're not willing to put yourself out there when you're writing isn't the greatest, you can't get the feedback needed to grow and get better.
Of course criticism is valuable, however there are two side to this we must learn: your writing world and the readers expectations.
Valuable lessons for writers can learned by attending a reading group. This happened to our writing group session when three readers attended our workshop. These are readers that consume several novels in a month.The readers told us they do not have the imagination to craft an original story. However they loved reading and know what is a good story after sampling a few pages of an author's new book.
Our writing group were fascinated by what the readers said to be a well written book.
The main take out was they all wanted the author to transport them to an engaging world, if this was not achieved, then one more chance was given for that author for the readers to read their future work, otherwise the author simply was not read again.
Ruthless ? reality bites !
So what does well written and good enough mean anyway ? by whose rules? academia, or the commercial publishing world ?
We all go through the education system and learn how to communicate. That is to articulate ideas into words to write essays and master grammar to some extent to pass exams.
We encounter critics all the time, but you must make sure you have sent your work to the right people
for review otherwise it is a waste of your time ... and pray if you are commercially minded.
Something else is at play besides criticism.
So what is the secret sauce for your writing to be interesting and widely read ? can this be bottled and sold ?
I do find some editors criticism easier to take than others. And have to admit to that initial defensive reflex sometimes. I wish I didn't. I know it's not personal, but sometimes it feels it. Sometimes I want to say - good point, but that's how I want it, that's how I felt it should be.
I have to remember the whole point of exposing your work to an editor. It's not for them to say - that was great. Publish immediately!
You don't have to agree with everything they say, but if you can't defend your words, it's probably best to stick to blogging.
I’ve read some really terrible books which were commercially successful. Those writers would give good feedback on how to pitch a story to close a deal or make money but I wouldn’t trust their feedback on the writing.
Then there is the question of subjective preference. Some people like one style, or genre but not another. This kind of bias is likely to affect any reader, whether they’re a writer too or not.
Unsolicited advice is extremely irritating in most contexts too.
With those caveats, feedback, from both a reader and a more experienced writer, is useful. It will make the work better.
There are always ways of giving it without doing so unpleasantly though. There’s the golden rule of starting off by saying something positive if possible too- which I think is useful when anyone is giving feedback in any context - writing related or not.
As an editor for a literary journal I not only help make decisions about submissions, I have also provided more than 1000 feedbacks (for a small fee) over the last six years. Yes, there is bad writing and quite a lot of it. Mostly it's not so much poor grammar, but a lack of knowledge about effective storytelling, those subtextual aspects of creative writing that make a work appealing to reader psychology. And that lack is compounded by a strange sense of entitlement that comes through in so many emerging writer stories. Like the doctor in your example, it's as though the writer is saying, I've had a career in X, so why shouldn't I be able to be successful as a writer as well? It shows a lack of respect for what we do, and why anyone would want to take part in a field they do not respect is puzzling, unless it is to feed their egos. It reminds me of something Laurence Olivier said when he was asked what makes a great actor. His answer: The humility to prepare and the confidence to pull it off. I see a lot of confidence out there. Not so much humility.
I've heard a lot of the same, yet I never actually meet these entitled writers. That Laurence Olivier quote is spot in though! Let's make sure humility is part of our practice.
This is spot on, Kern. I have been really enjoying the podcast from The S*** no one tells you about writing where they do query critiques at the start of almost every episode... It's been eye opening...
Thanks for this discussion piece, Kern. I agree that feedback should be honest and constructive. For me, having been a proofreader both in scientific journal publishing and for friends/family, I feel that writing quality is directly proportional to the amount of diligent effort put into it. And diligent effort can come in different forms--through writing practice, education, a willingness to reread and rewrite your work, the ability to accept and utilize constructive feedback, etc.
This is a great piece. Also, another way in is to read good critical writing. There used to be more in the newspapers but there are good critical essays in literary reviews, NYReview of Books etc. Need more devoted to Canadian writing. But that said, we need the writing first. It is so important to have writing communities to encourage each other.
As an ex-journalist, I feel we are used to criticism and feedback which at times can feel tiring (well in my case). But as painful as it was (going through criticism almost each day) I also knew that was what would make me a better journalist.
Also, nowadays a lot of people think they can write because of blogs but especially because of social media. Don't get me wrong, you do discover some great writers that way but other than that it's just people who love to write who can write okay. But like you said, it is more often than not missing techniques.
Criticism is also the reason why I haven't written in over a decade. I'm scared and not ready to be mediocre (although it's better to start mediocre than not start at all 😫).
Claire, please start!!!!! We need more stories and as a former journalist, I can only imagine the ideas perculating in your mind. Start, start, start. I will annoy you till no end if you do not LOL
You know what's funny (or depressing) ? Since I decided to give writing a go again, I have been as dry as a desert ideas-wise. I know I don't want to write fiction (way too scary) but what non-fiction genre and topics I want to write ? No idea. Also, I'm french and have decided that I wanted to write in english, because you know writing in your own language is already a challenge so why not top it all off with another one ? 😅 #desperate
As I sit in my hotel room the day after attending a writers conference and pitching to three agents your post came at the right time. How did you know? All three agents asked for various pieces (first 50 pages, synopsis only, etc). For some reason I wasn’t feeling very excited.
Now I know it’s just from being tired. It wasn’t my best day.
I’ve been rejected before, with no feedback. Rejected with feedback, and it was great feedback, done in the nicest way and I incorporated that feedback. Feedback is so valuable for becoming better than what you yesterday.
Within my rambling reply what I’m trying to say is this - I do think there should be a foundational expectation of the quality of writing, the understanding if the elements of what makes a good story because if you write and you don’t understand those elements the best feedback will be lost. The good thing is that if you are someone with the drive and desire to become a better writer there are so many resources available for free (and paid too). I have used both when I come across something I don’t understand.
But if you want to have a blog to share your personal story, to heal, then you write your heart out and don’t worry about sentence structure. Those are my favorite stories written by bravest people on the planet.
Agreed, Talia, which is why I was so specifically speaking about novels. I think there are spaces where all you need to write is your story and spellchecker lol but to write books, you need a particular set of skills. I don't think there's anything wrong with saying that a certain standard should be expected.
I do wonder why with writing, or anything creative really, that so many people feel that it's easy, anyone can do it, there aren't or shouldn't be foundational standards, etc. Those are things that people have told me.
Now I'm at the beginning of my writer to author journey but I'm also someone who has changed careers several times and I know that each of the careers, there are foundational requirements, whether those were licenses, degrees, etc., that I earned to show I had foundational knowledge before I could begin working in those careers.
Exactly! And I ask myself the same thing. But like I mentioned in the piece, any "barrier" in the creative fields is thought of as gatekeeping so it gets tricky, even though there are totally levels to this.
"Critique their work, push them to improve, be fair and specific in your feedback, but don’t be afraid to be harsh."
This is the manner in which professional media critics have been expected to work within. (Amateur ones are another manner). It helps sometimes if there is objective distance in the tone and words to ensure personal bias is limited- using "we" in place of "I", and the use of titles like "Mr." were used to create a respectful attitude to the author even if the work itself was criticized. At one time this was standard in publications but has been abandoned; it should not have been.
I agree--there is such a thing as bad writing (with a lot of room for interpretation within the definitions of "bad" and "good"). There is value in critiquing respectfully but without holding back. Like you said, we should all want to elevatw the craft! I also think we (writers/readers) can assume that getting past the gatekeepers automatically means something is good, while not getting accepted by those gatekeepers means it's bad. I have read some self-published authors whose work is objectively excellent and in some cases better than some traditionally published work. In one case, the author's work doesn't fit into a neat genre and is difficult to market. In another case, she chose self-publishing because she likes the actual publishing part. So, all that to say: yes, there is bad and good writing, we should critique respectfully, and the gatekeepers aren't always right (unless they are giving actual, helpful feedback)
The gatekeepers certainly aren't always right, Amanda. That is very true. And to your point, it's not really a published vs self published thing, just an expectation of quality thing.
Isn't bad writing a necessary step on the path to good writing?
I collected a great deal of rejection letters during the first 50 years of my writing journey, but I kept at it, attending conferences to pitch in person, taking courses to learn more, and, most importantly, writing. I don't know how much of my drive to keep at it was due to the encouragement I received early on from my family and friends. I might have given up if I had been told then how bad my writing was. If my writing still isn't good enough, I will keep at it, doing whatever it takes to make it better. None of us likes harsh criticism, but criticism of our work is part of the development process, if we work at it. I would hate to kill someone's enthusiasm about writing. I was lucky enough to have some excellent teachers who were super helpful along the way, and I consider all who read my novels and give me feedback in that process. We don't start out good. We work at it. So, if my writing isn't good enough, I will keep working on it. BTW - Good enough for whom? It has to be good enough for me first.
I would totally agree that bad writing is a necessary part of good writing. If you're not willing to put yourself out there when you're writing isn't the greatest, you can't get the feedback needed to grow and get better.
Of course criticism is valuable, however there are two side to this we must learn: your writing world and the readers expectations.
Valuable lessons for writers can learned by attending a reading group. This happened to our writing group session when three readers attended our workshop. These are readers that consume several novels in a month.The readers told us they do not have the imagination to craft an original story. However they loved reading and know what is a good story after sampling a few pages of an author's new book.
Our writing group were fascinated by what the readers said to be a well written book.
The main take out was they all wanted the author to transport them to an engaging world, if this was not achieved, then one more chance was given for that author for the readers to read their future work, otherwise the author simply was not read again.
Ruthless ? reality bites !
So what does well written and good enough mean anyway ? by whose rules? academia, or the commercial publishing world ?
We all go through the education system and learn how to communicate. That is to articulate ideas into words to write essays and master grammar to some extent to pass exams.
We encounter critics all the time, but you must make sure you have sent your work to the right people
for review otherwise it is a waste of your time ... and pray if you are commercially minded.
Something else is at play besides criticism.
So what is the secret sauce for your writing to be interesting and widely read ? can this be bottled and sold ?
I do find some editors criticism easier to take than others. And have to admit to that initial defensive reflex sometimes. I wish I didn't. I know it's not personal, but sometimes it feels it. Sometimes I want to say - good point, but that's how I want it, that's how I felt it should be.
I have to remember the whole point of exposing your work to an editor. It's not for them to say - that was great. Publish immediately!
You don't have to agree with everything they say, but if you can't defend your words, it's probably best to stick to blogging.
I think that initial reflex is natural. It's more about taking a step back and trusting that both you and the editor have the same goal.
I’ve read some really terrible books which were commercially successful. Those writers would give good feedback on how to pitch a story to close a deal or make money but I wouldn’t trust their feedback on the writing.
Then there is the question of subjective preference. Some people like one style, or genre but not another. This kind of bias is likely to affect any reader, whether they’re a writer too or not.
Unsolicited advice is extremely irritating in most contexts too.
With those caveats, feedback, from both a reader and a more experienced writer, is useful. It will make the work better.
There are always ways of giving it without doing so unpleasantly though. There’s the golden rule of starting off by saying something positive if possible too- which I think is useful when anyone is giving feedback in any context - writing related or not.
As an editor for a literary journal I not only help make decisions about submissions, I have also provided more than 1000 feedbacks (for a small fee) over the last six years. Yes, there is bad writing and quite a lot of it. Mostly it's not so much poor grammar, but a lack of knowledge about effective storytelling, those subtextual aspects of creative writing that make a work appealing to reader psychology. And that lack is compounded by a strange sense of entitlement that comes through in so many emerging writer stories. Like the doctor in your example, it's as though the writer is saying, I've had a career in X, so why shouldn't I be able to be successful as a writer as well? It shows a lack of respect for what we do, and why anyone would want to take part in a field they do not respect is puzzling, unless it is to feed their egos. It reminds me of something Laurence Olivier said when he was asked what makes a great actor. His answer: The humility to prepare and the confidence to pull it off. I see a lot of confidence out there. Not so much humility.
- Joe Ponepinto
I've heard a lot of the same, yet I never actually meet these entitled writers. That Laurence Olivier quote is spot in though! Let's make sure humility is part of our practice.
This is spot on, Kern. I have been really enjoying the podcast from The S*** no one tells you about writing where they do query critiques at the start of almost every episode... It's been eye opening...
Thanks for this discussion piece, Kern. I agree that feedback should be honest and constructive. For me, having been a proofreader both in scientific journal publishing and for friends/family, I feel that writing quality is directly proportional to the amount of diligent effort put into it. And diligent effort can come in different forms--through writing practice, education, a willingness to reread and rewrite your work, the ability to accept and utilize constructive feedback, etc.
The ability to accept and utilize feedback is super key, Steph. Spot on!
This is a great piece. Also, another way in is to read good critical writing. There used to be more in the newspapers but there are good critical essays in literary reviews, NYReview of Books etc. Need more devoted to Canadian writing. But that said, we need the writing first. It is so important to have writing communities to encourage each other.
Yes to writing communities! So necessary, Kim!!
As an ex-journalist, I feel we are used to criticism and feedback which at times can feel tiring (well in my case). But as painful as it was (going through criticism almost each day) I also knew that was what would make me a better journalist.
Also, nowadays a lot of people think they can write because of blogs but especially because of social media. Don't get me wrong, you do discover some great writers that way but other than that it's just people who love to write who can write okay. But like you said, it is more often than not missing techniques.
Criticism is also the reason why I haven't written in over a decade. I'm scared and not ready to be mediocre (although it's better to start mediocre than not start at all 😫).
Claire, please start!!!!! We need more stories and as a former journalist, I can only imagine the ideas perculating in your mind. Start, start, start. I will annoy you till no end if you do not LOL
🤣 please do annoy me.
You know what's funny (or depressing) ? Since I decided to give writing a go again, I have been as dry as a desert ideas-wise. I know I don't want to write fiction (way too scary) but what non-fiction genre and topics I want to write ? No idea. Also, I'm french and have decided that I wanted to write in english, because you know writing in your own language is already a challenge so why not top it all off with another one ? 😅 #desperate
Haha yeah make it double hard LMAO interestingly enough, I'm studying French now. Hoping to be bilingual soon.
That's awesome. French is hard, don't you think ? Bonne chance anyway and if you ever want to practice ton français, I'm here !!
Thanks, and yes it's definitely hard
As I sit in my hotel room the day after attending a writers conference and pitching to three agents your post came at the right time. How did you know? All three agents asked for various pieces (first 50 pages, synopsis only, etc). For some reason I wasn’t feeling very excited.
Now I know it’s just from being tired. It wasn’t my best day.
I’ve been rejected before, with no feedback. Rejected with feedback, and it was great feedback, done in the nicest way and I incorporated that feedback. Feedback is so valuable for becoming better than what you yesterday.
Within my rambling reply what I’m trying to say is this - I do think there should be a foundational expectation of the quality of writing, the understanding if the elements of what makes a good story because if you write and you don’t understand those elements the best feedback will be lost. The good thing is that if you are someone with the drive and desire to become a better writer there are so many resources available for free (and paid too). I have used both when I come across something I don’t understand.
But if you want to have a blog to share your personal story, to heal, then you write your heart out and don’t worry about sentence structure. Those are my favorite stories written by bravest people on the planet.
Agreed, Talia, which is why I was so specifically speaking about novels. I think there are spaces where all you need to write is your story and spellchecker lol but to write books, you need a particular set of skills. I don't think there's anything wrong with saying that a certain standard should be expected.
I do wonder why with writing, or anything creative really, that so many people feel that it's easy, anyone can do it, there aren't or shouldn't be foundational standards, etc. Those are things that people have told me.
Now I'm at the beginning of my writer to author journey but I'm also someone who has changed careers several times and I know that each of the careers, there are foundational requirements, whether those were licenses, degrees, etc., that I earned to show I had foundational knowledge before I could begin working in those careers.
Why would writing be any different?
Exactly! And I ask myself the same thing. But like I mentioned in the piece, any "barrier" in the creative fields is thought of as gatekeeping so it gets tricky, even though there are totally levels to this.
"Critique their work, push them to improve, be fair and specific in your feedback, but don’t be afraid to be harsh."
This is the manner in which professional media critics have been expected to work within. (Amateur ones are another manner). It helps sometimes if there is objective distance in the tone and words to ensure personal bias is limited- using "we" in place of "I", and the use of titles like "Mr." were used to create a respectful attitude to the author even if the work itself was criticized. At one time this was standard in publications but has been abandoned; it should not have been.